In this historic election, America voted the first African-American into the highest office of this land. A big step forward since the long-standing history of prejudice and racism.
Wow! As most would say. But at the same time, Americans took another gigantic step backward when they voted to deny a man and a woman’s sole right to the pursuit of happiness.
Now! I am in no shape or form to judge or even decide on what should a man or a woman do with their lives when it comes to the quality of it they want to pursue or the lifestyle they choose to live. But what I have witnessed happen in California this past recent election made me wonder if we as the people are completely blinded and miss-directed by the religious rights.
Proposition 8 was the recent amendment to the California state constitution that restricted the definition of marriage to a union between a man and a woman. It basically scratched off the California’s supreme court decision to recognize same sex marriage in that state. The fact that it’s even on the ballot this election year was mind boggling to me.
It was not too long ago that blacks & women weren’t even allowed to vote in this country. We all wondered if our forefathers were in fact insane when they made that decision. Everyone recognizes that the decision made back in those days was nothing but pure prejudice and oppression.
So what have we now? Sometimes I wonder the point of having a hate crime laws in the United States which by the way only addresses hate crime only committed based on a person’s race, color, religion and national origin. So what about human rights?
I don’t pretend nor do I begin to say that I understand what it means to be a homosexual in this day and age. Basically, whatever floats your skirt…or ….whatever!…. it’s fine with me. But to see that an average citizen (specially blacks) living in California denying another man’s or woman’s right to live free of fear in partnership with their loved ones and to not allow them to have their sanctity of marriage (whomever they choose to marry) recognized is just simply another form of prejudice and oppression that black minorities should be very much in tune with.
We all may have different views about these issues. Some might still think it’s a sodomy, others might think that it’s a way of life. Even some may consider homosexuality to be a disease…to each his own. But who are we to deny the people of this country the “inalienable rights of a man”?
Doesn’t the United States declaration of independence have one of the most famous phrases that say …life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
So where did we go wrong? Have we all been miss-guided by the misnomer from our religious leaders, parents and political leaders? It still leaves me wondering and wanting to know more.
Published by November 25th, 2008 in Current Issues, Social and Thoughts.
Marriage is only between a MAN and WOMAN. Anything other than that should be given a different classification such as civil union.
Chelema: I can’t believe that you would put same sex marriages in the same category as allowing blacks to vote! Mene nekah? Marriage is a union between MAN and WOMAN ordained by God. Just like equal rights for all people is mandated by GOD. Should we allow MEN and MEN and WOMEN and WOMEN to be married? NO! True indeed, to each his own, however, we can’t legally okay the Unions.
PERSONALLY, I can’t imagine my children 10 years from now asking me why they have a mother and father and not two moms or two dads. That is my worst fear!!!! As we continue to mess with the family structure (which is already jacked up), we are introducing new and foreign things, which continues to further unstable-ize society.
We are created by GOD (regardless of how you think you came to be….you were created by GOD) for his divine purposes…One is: for us to multiply and be fruitful… this indicates that there is a HEAVENLY (Heaven: is where God lives
) order that’s in place to which we must adhere to. Same sex marriages go against the order…As a people who know God, and those who are called to live according to his purpose, it is our duty to preserve the Heavenly order until Kingdom comes.
And that is why I VOTE YES for PROPOSITION 8!!!!
Comparison of same sex marriage struggles with civil rights movement. It IS NOT THE SAME THING. yes both groups were minorities that were being discriminated against, the comparison ends there. I think marriage as defined in the bible should be reserved only to those who believe in it. Every other marriage that is not by “believers” of the concept of marriage as defined in the bible should be considered A CONTRACT or CIVIL union. This should not be reserved just to same sex marriages but also to those people married that are athiest as well. This is not being hateful, I think religious groups have the right to protect their views as much as gay people do. If you dont believe in the religious aspect of marriage then why are homosexuals pressed to label it marriage?
I have a question, if same sex marriage is approved, then what is to prevent polygamy and keep it illegal?
(I will admit it is a difficult topic and a lot of gray area, but this is my point of view as of right now, at this age. But I do think about this argument a lot. And this is my opinion and I know there is going to be some pro same sex marriage person’s blood are going to be boiling when they read this)
Chelema,
Let me tell you a funny story. My dad was here a few years ago and one night we were watching TV during the gay pride week. Gay pride in Toronto is a full week long celebration that attracts about half a million visitors and a full week of media attention.
So they came up on TV and most of them are barely covered and my dad was disgusted. He said “mindinachew enezi”. And I explained to him what they are and that it is a gay pride week. Guess what he said….”lemin aygeluachewm?”
I have some of his blood and I am a registered homophobic.
But I also understand we share the country and there is a human rights element to the issue. But you have to keep in mind what they have been denied is not their marriage. They can still do it. What they have been denied is the legal benefits of a married couple. They should be happy. They r sick anyways.
As everyone said, black civil right issues and the definition of gay marriage are totally different things. My question as everyone is, why would gay couples need the term “Marriage”? Why don’t they come up with another name like “Civil Union” or “Domestic Partnership” ..bla..bla…?
But i don’t think Prop:8 is against their civil right. They have “the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law…” as married spouses.
Nature provides all privileges to all humans but didn’t provide the gift of “reproduction” to the gay couples. Only man and women can reproduce, not same sex couples.
Very interesting views ladies and gents! Keep them coming. Though I agree with some of what you guys said, I also reserve my views and openions in this matter as that of a realistic. Personally, I don’t agree with the religious counter views regarding this issue because it does in fact unfairly discriminate. Here is why???
According to the Bible (Matthew 19:6), God’s plan is that marriage be a lifetime commitment. “So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate”
In other words, though there may be some biblical resons for divorce whether be it a “just-cause” it generally forbids it. But in today’s society, divorce is legal and lawfully recognized. So why not same-sex marriage? We basically went against the bible when we allowed divorce to occur for any reason. Isn’t that in fact picking and choosing? thereby unfairly discriminating?
Okay! not to do too much ranting on this… I would still choose to remain open to all views and openions.
I think gay marriage ,women’ rights , black rights …green rights ..yellow rights ..whatever…they are all the same. The sooner we realize that the better.If you discriminate you discriminate. There is no half a person in this world. I think keith Olberman said it all a few weeks back. People are not even asked to give up something they have. Just let live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHyy8gkNEE
Or as chris Tucker said
“Gay people have the same right to be miserable in marriage”:)
I bet you think you are enlightened:)
I consider myself to be some-what a progressive thinker and I believe homosexual partners should be granted the same rights as heterosexual couples. What bothers me though, is why homosexual partners insist on using the term “marriage”? I am looking at it from a pragmatic view – there is essentially no difference between civil union and marriage and most States in fact allow civil unions of homosexual couples. A civil union is a legally recognized union similar to marriage. My question is the right to use the word “marriage” worth fight for?
So Chelema, you characterization of homosexual marriage as a civil right is a little off-base. We can argue about what word we should use to describe a union. Some insist that the term “marriage” should continue to have its traditional meaning while others want to change it.
cheers
Chelema, what a timely and important issue. Here is my take on it:
It’s a human rights issue and the Law is supposed to protect minorities. In this case, homosexuals. Not so long ago inter-racial marriage was illegal(till 1960′s). When we think about it now, we might say how absurd pple were at that time. Like you mentioned women voting rights came to effect in the 1920′s and civil rights(60′s) now we have elected a black president(2008). The next issue is legalizing same sex marriage.
Religion: Religion has been promoting(indirectly) bigotry and conformity. We all sin in one way or another so why single out homosexuals. Jesus says on John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” We have to love and accept one another as we are.
How would a homosexual be a threat to me as aheterosexual while he/she has the same needs as a human being except for our difference in sexual orientation. Why discriminate? Does this make us a better person? Do you think by hating people different than us make us a better person?
By banning same sex marriage do you think you are avoiding homosexuality or homosexuals?
The reason they want to make it legal is because they are denied of adopting, property transfers, health decisions, these and other issues need a spouse or immedicate family to be taken care of. So if a gay guy with a partner for 25 years is about to die and all the rights a hetro has doesn’t apply to him. Now is that fair?
Parenthood: now we all know just because you are hetero doesn’t make you a good parent. No explanation for that. Evidence is the number of abondened kids, molested and murdered coming from the supposedly “structured family structure”.
Why don’t we see our wrong doings and sins instead of seeing or deciding what’s wrong and rights. As heterosexuals…how do you see adultry, bigotry, discrimination, murder. We have so much stuff to deal with before scapegoating others just because they have different sexual orientation.
Can somebody help me with the verse..it’s somewhere along the line of..Look at the dirt in your eyes before you try to take what’s in your brother’s eyes…
“My question is the right to use the word ‘marriage’ worth fight for? ”
I say yes. It’s like “Separate but equal” . Who would want to settle for less?
Look at Massachusettes and Connecticut. They are the only two states that allowed same sex marriage. Did those two places turned to Sodom and Gomorrah? Did those places turn to gaydom?
Canada, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway, Spain and even South Africa allowed same sex marriage. Is their “traditional structured family structure” troubled???
I don’t like the comparison between civil (black) rights and gay rights, because I don’t believe they are the same. But I believe in gay rights just as much. What two consulting adults choose to do with each other whether they are gay or straight is up to them. Homosexuals should have the same rights to get married and have the same legal protections and benefits as straights. What happened in California is a shame. Marriage is a man made construct. It had different meanings thought-out history. Long ago polygamy was the norm (still is in many places), and women used to belong to their husbands. All that has changed for the most part. So why can’t the definition of marriage change to include same sex marriage? It will take nothing away from marriage between a man and a woman.
It really offends me when people say “they are sick” or ….”lemin aygeluachewm?” come on Dinich how can you say that as a Christian? I guess one can only say that as a christian.
BTW Chelema hate crimes include crimes committed against homosexuals not just the ones you mentioned on your post.
I live in California and believe the fight is a ridiculous one. I think its sad that ppl of color who understand what it is like to be discriminated against chose vote for prop 8. Its 2009 and i cant believe ppl are still on this homophobic ish. I think its funny that religious groups want to keep this whole idea of marriage being a sacred union between man and woman. Really ppl, hetrosexual couples have not respected that institution for years. And quite frankly a “what is in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet”. Marriage, civil union does it really matter what it is called if it is basically the same thing. I think there are bigger battles we should be fighting. The situation in Iraq, Congo and if Americans want to keep it more close to home, there are still many ppl in New Orleans who have no place to call home.
To add to what Tsedey had already said, “which she said it well btw”…
“When gay people say that this is a civil rights issue, they are referring to matters of civil justice. Examples include:
1). Being able to make medical decissions for their partners in times of an emergency.
2). If their partners are arrested, they can be compelled to testify against them or provide evidence against them, which legally married couples are not forced to do.
3). Upon death, in many cases, even very carefully drawn wills and durable powers of attorney have proven to not be enough if a family wishes to challenge a will, overturn a custody decision, or exclude them from a funeral or deny them the right to visit a partner’s hospital bed or grave”.
So I don’t believe my characterization of same sex marriage as a civil rights issue is off base. Isn’t the concept of not denying people their rights unless you can show a compelling reason to deny them is the very basis of the civil rights? In most people’s openion perhaps, that compelling reason might be…”The bible”
Well, you must know that the bible has absolutely no standing in American law as it was explicitly made clear by the intent of the first amendment and by the founding fathers in the Treaty of Tripoli in 1791.
Tsedey,
That was so well put. So dame proud of you !
Just want to point out South Africa is the first country to legalize gay marriage,If I am not mistaken.
helen,
I don’t mean to sound like a stubern school teacher here. But just for clarification and an FYI to you. The current Federal statutes permit federal prosecution of hate crimes committed on the basis of a person’s race, color, religion, or nation origin when engaging in a federally protected activity. The Federal legislation that would add sexual orientation I believe still is pending. There are some states that include this as a hate crime, but its not yet the federal law.
Chele, minew bakih, the rights of women and blacks to vote shouldn’t be compared to the rights of homosexuals to marry at all!
), we were born as such.
I agree with some of the comments above that gay ppl are not being denied the right to be what they are….they are just denied the legal rights of marriage. Besides, states which allow civil unions provide the benefits that come with it such as survivor’s benefit, sick leave to care for partner etc….so, that should suffice. leziawum, Only in America! bilual sewyew!
I know this will take us to another topic of its own, but I believe whether one supports gay marriage, stems from and depends on whether one believes gay ppl are born gay OR that it’s something they learned. In my opinion, being gay is not physical(their brains are not any different, as some suggest)…Being gay is environmental and learned! That’s what they chose! BUT we did not choose to be women or blacks (Thank God for choosing it for us
Not only that, we should see beyond Proposition 8…the question should be, WHAT NEXT? Legalize: underage marriage, Incest, ….where does it stop?
I hope and pray there won’t come a time when Ethiopia would compromise its stand on homosexuality for fear of losing support from the west.izghiooo!
In the UK gay people can marry, it is called a civil partnership, and not many people are bothered by it…
If I was Californian I would have voted for the gays to be allowed to marry, I don’t like the idea that a human being like me is deprived of a fundamental human right that I am allowed, the right to formalise a relationship by marriage or a civil union, recognised in law and with the protection of the law. why are the religious groups involved in something which is basically a matter of law not religion?. Are the gays asking to be married in church? and if not i don’t get it…
I would bet most of you if your kid or sibling came and said I am queer, you would hit the roof.
Its different from rights though….
Anonx, I laughed when I read your comment. Sure I would hit the roof! and everything else around me! but after I’m done with the yelling and screaming and more yelling…, I would choose to accept my child for who he/she is and fight (along side with my child) the system that would allow to treat him/her otherwise.
Anonx maybe I am fooling myself but I don’t think it would bother me all that much if my child told me they were gay…,they might be my child but their sexuality is their own, even if I don’t like it I must accept it and must accept them. And if I don’t like it what am I meant to do about it? short of disowning them which I am not willing to do. I think I would let my child be , my child struggle for acceptance and equality would then become my own as well..
I think I would become more protective of my child in a way that would be over and above my straight child as a result because life is a struggle for gay people.
As most of the poster said, comparing their issue with Black straggle to vote, sit on a bus next to a white person or dine in the same restaurant is baseless. I do not get the argument about their fundamental right is not respected, either. They are respected as human being and civil union has given them a legal protection as married peoples.
Their sexual act in public is a turn off and offensive, why I am force fed that in my won house through a TV screen. You can not watch a sitcom on TV this day without a gay act. Turning off the TV is the only option; or a rating system should be developed so that we have a right to choose a channel of our liking. How are we going to teach our children our values when the media is bombarding us with gay acts?
I am not fond of the religious right; but on this issue they have a lot of main stream support. The Vote in California is a perfect example.
It’s very important topic to ponder to, but how many of us (Ethiopians) are well versed in this issue to be neutral or balanced in our opinion towards homesexuals? I wonder. For eg. myself I’m an absolute believer in changing some of the established point of views. However, I’m struggling to accept a gay couple (especially man and man) in my home. But don’t get me wrong I still believe they should be entitle to get what their heart desired in marriage or civil union. A very bright Canadian plitician has said it well long time ago ” the government has no business in the bedrooms of other people” something on this sort. I think the politician was Prime minister Pierre Trudeau. My final answer is they should be free to choose their kind of marriage. Do I have hardship understnding their world? You bet! I do. Am I willing to respect their choice? Absolutely. I have to be ready to learn to accept them not only respect them. How bad it is to be singledout and descriminated simply for being different than the average/accepted norm? It must be a very harrowing experience. Please, be very careful passing judgements on other peoples exprience. Particularlly those Ethiopians who just came from a very conservative society what most of Ethiopia is.
What two consenting adults do to each other , uncoerced, is their business as long as it doesn’t harm others. If one is homophobic then one should keep it to onself and not project it to others. In this day and age, people should be allowed to spend their lives with a person of their choosing regardless of sex and they should not be denied any benefit of married couples. In short as one habesha gay man was overheard saying … “habesha hula bene kit min agebaw!”
Bedofrd, u brought up a very good point for those who blame the religious rights. This is not about religious rights. We have seen from Sarah Palin the religious rights don’t have much political influence.
When you consider the fact that California is one of the most gay friendly places in the world, this is clearly mainstream America rejecting the idea. If California rejected it, then dont blame the religious rights. 61% of California voted Obama. They showed good judgement. I trusted their judgement on Nov. 4 and I have no reason to doubt it now….
I gave up on this world when a woman became a man to marry another woman and have a baby by artificial insemination. She/he had a vaginal birth AND wants the birth parent to be listed as the father. So if he wants to fck him and she wants to fck her for the rest of their natural life then who am I to say anything. If I have anal sex with a woman does that mean I have homosexual tendencies?
Can someone clarify is sex synonymous with homosexuality?d
Chelema and Hidaya, I think you both are passing over one stage …. After bewilderment and before acceptance I would be surprise if you didn’t contact Dinich’s pastor for help with coversion…
Blacks are being blamed for the passage of prop. 8 because it is convinient, because those who opposed prop 8 were looking for escape goats and knew that minority trun out was high during this election. Mind you, blacks were only 7% of the Californian electorate, the fact that prop. 8 passed was because a lot of whites and hispanics voted for it too.
Most adults who take pleasure in abusing kids were abused as a kid themselves. Black people who have been on the receiving end of civil rights infringement take pleasure in infringing the rights of others. Another fitting instance of humans inherent evil nature…
Here is a very interesting read that kind of shows that the analogy of racism and gay marriage rights is not correct.
http://www.slate.com/id/2204661/pagenum/2
Hi anonx:)…
I agree, there is a time between bewilderment and acceptance but I would hope that my child and I would have an understanding and make allowances for each other…from my part as a parent I would want to make sure whether it is was a phase they were going through or who they are forever, to make absolute sure of that we must make numerous trips to Counsellors to find out and I would hope they would indulge me if not I will just make them..dunno how yet but would insist on it…if the counselling doesn’t work and they are as gay as gay is I must then let go whatever my feelings about it and let them be…and one more thing, they might be gay and I must accept it coz loving my child is more important to me than their bedtimes business, but they are staying home where they are safe from prejudice and no one can hurt them or take advantage of them and I can protect them as much as I can..they are only leaving when they decide to get married or unionised whatever lol..
They are sick perverts and i am saddened by some of your comments .Some of you think you are flexible intellectuals by accepting the unacceptable behavior .
Have you ever seen a male animal having sex with another male animal ??? That makes them less than animal .
Hidaya
uuufff you live in la la land meselegne .councelor minamin .if your kids grow up to be gay wesdesh to your local church tsebel mastemeq new .i am sure “yeferenj seytan negne ” eyale leflifo yiwetal .coz it is cursed ,devilish and in the meantime by your subtle accepting tone you are teaching your kids a low deteriorating moral value .wake up !!!!
There is a reason marriage has privileges and benefits. It’s because through marriage a couple, a man and a woman, is likely to produce a few other members of society and then rear them. Bringing a few more productive members for society and ensuring our continued survival. There is no reason for society to afford married ppl any privileges if in turn the couples dont provide something to society.
There are no social norms for now that would ensure contribution from a gay couple to society. Hence there is no need to afford gay couples any benefit.
If gay couples wanna get the benefits of society they should offer something to it in return. They need to be creative here.
Otherwise, a person’s preference of a partner is nobody’s biz.
just my two cents
Biskut wow, strong views expressed,
By the same token I too have my own views of what i would do if my child turned gay…do I live in la la land?…I actually didn’t think I did, but if I do then so be it there are worse places to live than la la land.
Gay or straight the responsability of tending to my child’s emtional care falls squarely on my and its father’s shoulders with he consent of the child and n one else, if we determine counselling is what our child needs counselling is what the’re gonna get and I will stand by and love my child coz that is what a mother does in my view.
“coz it is cursed ,devilish and in the meantime by your subtle accepting tone you are teaching your kids a low deteriorating moral value .wake up !!!!”
What you call my subtle accepting tone is born out of wanting others to be what they wish to be including my children I thought that was more about tolerance and live and let live but perhaps I was wrong and it is indeed teaching low morals…
I am not willing to force people including my child to be something they are not, how do you suppose I can do that anyway? beat them within an inch of their life to get the devil out of them and be who I want them to be rather than who they are? …
Have you ever seen a male animal having sex with another male animal ??? That makes them less than animal .
Where did you grow up, in a betemeqdes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
you know what really makes me SAD!To see what the next generation would be like? If we are allowing Gay marriages and they are allowed to adapt a kid. Then lets say all the freaking gays adapt kids and sooner or later there will be NO HUMAN KIND on earth. Because who is going to keep the generation going? If the same sex marriage is allowed, who is going to have babies. Not to mention the adopted kid will Aslo think its COOL to have two moms or two dads. Kids mind is like Neche wereket…
this is an interesting topic. i see strong arguments from each side of the issue. this is a topic i know very little about before. it never occurred to me that there is anything to know about it. but i must admit i have learned a lot from the ideas presented here. i can say i have better grasp and understanding now than ever before.
i still have no strong position on this subject either way, but i tend to agree with KKK and Getu. i am also cool with the idea of civil union or whatever jargon/word/phrase they use to keep the rights of gays in society. but same same sex marriage defies nature and everything we have learned so far. i am not homophobic. i care less what other people choose to be, or care less what they do behind closed doors. but same sex marriage is going way too far, at this point in time in human history.
Getu,
I really like what u said…good point!
BTW.there are also some gay ppl who do not support gay marriage. My gay friend is one…he lives with his partner of many years but opposes gay marriage as well as gay adoption. So, for those of you who think this is to do with religious conviction, not always!
There is a general tendency among liberals to be supportive of gays, not judge them, be inclusive minamin…because that is a cool thing to do. But I am of the opinion that most if not all gay people have a deep cry to be free from their sick ways. The “Pride” is only public.
I am also of the opinion that by opposing everything gay, I am not hating but helping gay people and society at large by pointing to what I think is right….
I could care less if one man chooses to sleep with another but if we are supposed to be a community of constructive dialogue, we should call a spade a spade.
Liberalism sometimes is the road to nowhere….
Getu, I like how you put it, perhaps that gives a secular, maybe utilitarian defense for Prop 8…With regards to how people voted, I think for christians (in general cos episcopalians think otherwise) the bible is clear homosexuality is a sin, so if a Christian voter has an opportunity to vote on this matter then most likely they will vote to keep marriage be/n man and women. I also share this view, and in my time in the US have seen this to be more of a nurture issue instead of a nature issue (unlike color/gender). Even predisposition is IMO a faulty argument, as it creates a pseudo delineation, that confuses all sorts of attractions as sexual. Anyway, societies are moving very fast to the time of the greeks and all their different “loves”.
So Getu should a marriage between a man and a woman who won’t or can’t have children be illegal? Should men and women have to go through some test to make sure they can bear children before they are allowed to get married? Because if they can’t they are not contributing anything to society. Your argument doesn’t hold water. Who says gay couples cannot have children anyways? They can and many have. If nothing else they adopt and give homes to children that need loving homes. Your statement that gay couples “do not benefit” society is ridiculous.
Dinich, there you go calling people sick again, not very nice. Acceptance is not a question of being liberal or not it is a question of being human. For those of you who think this has nothing to do with religion, get real. One has only to look at who supported prop 8 to find out. There are many things the bible deems a sin, divorce is one of them, so is wearing clothes of mixed fabrics. I dont see many people protesting to make divorce or cotton-poly blends illegal.
“There is a general tendency among liberals to be supportive of gays, not judge them, be inclusive minamin…because that is a cool thing to do”…
If I may I beg to differ,
These values below is what liberals have a tendency to believe in and agree with, not because of the cool factor but because it is a political ideology that Liberals hold, not for the cool factor I repeat…
“Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that consider individual liberty to be the most important political goal.
Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term “liberal” and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual’s right to private property,[2] free markets,[2] and a transparent system of government.
[3] All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.[4]
Modern liberalism has its roots in the Age of Enlightenment and rejected many foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, established religion, and economic protectionism.
[5][6][7] Liberals argued that economic systems based on free markets are more efficient and generate more prosperity.[8]
The first modern liberal state was the United States of America[9], founded on the principle that “all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”[10
hidaya, well said!
Hidaya,
Well copy-pasted.
Thank you Chelema…
“Hidaya,
Well copy-pasted”.
Yes it is from Wiki …and your wider point is???….
Dinish, thank you to you too btw, but don’t you go spoil it by lacking grace when you’re found wrong.
You stated your own version of what you think Liberals believe in erronously as it goes.
I brought you the definition of the rules and political philosophies that make up Liberalism….
You then moved on to state “well copy and pasted”.
Well, wold you I rather made up my own version of what Liberalism is as you did instead of getting the official and accepted definition?…uhmmm to me that would not be kosher, if you want to though I could tell you in my own words the Def of Liberalism but it would still not deviate from the official definition, if it does it would not be the kosher version it would be my version…do let me know if there was a wider point to the copy and paste quip apart from stating the obvious…
Hidaya….Your whole lecture on liberalism makes it almost impossible to argue becuase you hit a million points and if I try to argue we will go on and on and on….and go way off topic…
Just to show you wat I mean, Wiki said:
“Liberals argued that economic systems based on free markets are more efficient and generate more prosperity”
Give me a break….Isn’t regulation what Obama is all about…Isn’t deregulation what liberals are critisizing Bush about…..Does that mean Conservatives dont believe in free trade? not at all…Wiki should be used with a grain of salt in my opinion.
Hidaya, am not trying to create a new discussion on liberal economics…but trying to show you how almost impossible it is to discuss these big topics on a blog because I come here for few brief momoents….This is probably one of my longest posts here…It is almost impossible to argue big topics like liberalism minamin through to the end….
Ok Dinich I hear you loud and clear there will be no forthcoming discussions about Liberal Economics from me who knows where it might lead us eh?…but what happened about the previous point before you moved to liberal economics, still claiming liberalism+ be nice to gays =to be cool? it is that point I would have liked to pursue if you were willing….
“Just to show you wat I mean, Wiki said”:
“Liberals argued that economic systems based on free markets are more efficient and generate more prosperity”
well i could go on and on about ideology and application all day long…I could start to deviate from the point ever so slightly but on a related topic in Liberalism with freedom of speech? do you really think there is such thing as complete freedom of speech? and if you believe that I have a bridge for sale lol…and why then do we have laws agaisnt blasphemy and race hate and language, so do you where I am going with this?….
“Give me a break….Isn’t regulation what Obama is all about…Isn’t deregulation what liberals are critisizing Bush about…..”
Your point about regulations and de-regulations, liberals, conservatives, Obama, Bush is actually topical and comes at a time of a great global economic crisis, and in the US last experienced way back in The Great Depression…you don’t mention anything about when de-regulation has led directly to abuse of the rules, maybe that is what is being suggested should be curbed and not the actual principle?… I don’t live in the US so I haven’t got a clue…
“Does that mean Conservatives dont believe in free trade? not at all”…
Well it was a definition of Liberalism not Conservatism wasn’t it?…
“Wiki should be used with a grain of salt in my opinion”.
uhmm, refuting something is different from just trying to undermine it or its source without actually stating your objecting view and argument Dinich …I could bring the same definition of Lwouiberalism from the Oxford dictionary would thatbe more accepting t you?.. read outs of John Locke about Liberalism too, but I am in agreement with you that probably there is little point to it since we cant even agree on the basics,….good day and week-end Dinich…
.
Helen,
You make a good point. Gay ppl do have children (of their own) and also adopt them. Nevertheless, I’ll bet its less than 15% of gay couples that rear children; unlike the more than 90% of heterosexual married people. So maybe when the rate of gay couples that raise children reaches 75% they should be granted the right to marry (numbers given above were pulled from thin air).
I’d like to move beyond gay couples and talk about non-traditional marriage. If we grant marriage to gay couples, why would we not allow a polygamous marriage? or why would not let me and three of my best male friends get married? This way, only one of us would have to get a “real” job and get the rest of us health coverage while we spend the whole day playing touch-football and Pac-man.
Also, this would be a great way for evading what “Bushies” call the death tax. All one would have to do is marry whomever they wanna give their fortune to just before dying (remember, they can marry more than one person at a time).
Helen, I just think its not fair for some ppl to just claim the right to a free ride
I hold no strong feeling for or against gay marriage…
HIDYA and HELEN
You guys need to wake up really!! I don’t want to beat this topic to death but there are times that i wonder when and how people stray away from moral values to be so gullible and naive .The proponents of gay marriage will always come up with myraid ideas to justify thier case and to be politically correct .Political correctness is used to make the evil appear harmless and is actually one of the greatest evils out there these days .It has distorted things under “alternative lifestyle” .I don’t call it alternative life style .I call it perversion and sickness .It is not inborn .It is learned. I guess calling evil good is sign of the times and i refuse to accept sugar coated languages that defy nature .i choose to stand by how i was brought up.you guys don’t have to stoop down to that level inorder to appear “cool ” or modern .Being opinionated does not mean being narrow minded .
chelema
“sim yimerho legibr” alu abba kesu ewnetim chelema
…Oh my morals again, damm them….btw Bisk have you got anything useful to add to this discussion or are you more confortable brow beating me and using emotive language without saying much apart from lashing out to all that think different from you? in any case I will not justify my moral values to you, to me they fine as they are and I am proud of it, …
“i choose to stand by how i was brought up.you guys don’t have to stoop down to that level inorder to appear “cool ” or modern .”
Uhmmmm, I dare say, your hypocrisy is breath taking, I bet you take advantage of modernity just like the next person, for example didn’t you just used the internet to submit your warmhearted message to me and Helen? isn’t that the marvel of the age? I could mention thousand modern marvels of the age that you probably take full advantage in their use..it is only a problem when you object about a particular aspect of modernity isn’t it? …
Anyway just to let you in a secret …this thing about the gays is a human rights issues in the modern age, there have been human rights issues in all ages, there was even a time when a woman had no human rights, to her children ,her home, even her possessions and was considered chattel, ie husband’s chattel and chattel had no rights…in a divorce she would have no rights to home or children, it is the modern age that changed all that and recognised a woman’s rights. I bet you enjoy those rights too and wouldn’t wanna go back when there were none and yes yet again they are rights created in the modern age not the backward one…
“Being opinionated does not mean being narrow minded”
I think you find that being opinionated differs from having a narrow point of view, but in any case I shall leave the labeling to you…. and now I am giving it a rest because neither one of us is budging from their point of view and I cant be bothered by more ear bashing …….
habesha in gay rights “wow” unheared of.i think it is possible for one to maintain his ground on issues like gay rights and still be considered enlightened or civilized in a socity. we ethiopians don’t have the cultural or the moral ground to speak about gay rights i believe. except offcours one is gay. for those of you who support gay marriege and as the same time belive yourself to be sceintfic i have a big Q TO ASK YOU . don’t you think that “animals which engage in sexual activity for reproductive purposes should be chatagorized from animals which perform sexual activity for physical pleasure. if you agree with my point, i think that’s what american plp trying to do. we are focusing too much on the poletical aspect of this issue i guss. leaders comes ang go with their own agenda to win elections but the will of the plp always stands out to do the right thing. i don’t care if you sleep with a man, but expecting the socity to reward you for your devient act is insane.
Some here remind me of an Abesha I once watched on Judge Brown, the show. He own a liquor store somewhere in Los Angelos and an African America lady was asking for unpaid child support. Our man said that it was a one night stand that produced a then beautyful 18 yrs old girl… Few times the AA lady had come to his store and he reluctantly gave her child support money. The daughter testified that she has brothers and sisters on her dad side that she visits regularly and loves dearly. Then judge Brown looks at the father… You have a beautyful daughter why would you not take care of her like your other children. Our man in LA said “judge, when queen sheba and king solomon had a child, she did not ask for money, she raised her son by herself” I nearly dropped off my seat and the audience and the daughter looked like they were watching a comedy show
Anonx, looool.
And here is a joke (I think this one is a joke) I heard about this abesha guy.
This abesha guy went on a same-sex marriage support parade and got caught on camera and was shown on the local TV. All abeshoch of the town saw him on TV and some of them went to the kidane mihret qes and told the qes what they saw on TV.
Next sunday the guy went to church as normal and the qes pulled him aside and said “minew minew lije….dehna lij aleberkim ende…gibre sedom neh ende?”
The guy replied, “abate algebaotim eko….ene gibresedom aydelhum…gin wend lewend megabat bifeqed, wendimen agbiche ke sudan ameTaw neber” lol
nice one annox…
Advocating for gay marraige rights is not a ‘cool’ thing to do… it’s a Christian(who doesn’t judge)thing to do..it’s what decent human beings who believe in equality…a responsibility of a rational being that empathizes with others that are different… a responsibility of a tolerant human being that doesn’t judge and discriminate.
For those who think habeshas are exempt from all these social issues… you wake up… we don’t live in an island of paradise..
For those who think homosexuality is learned not inborn, back yourself up with credible source.
tsedey
I promise to back myself as soon as you present a “credible evidence ” that shows homosexuality is inborn.
Hidaya
i find you to be nitpicky yet incredibly dumb .It is unfortunate you retorted to a mixutre of anger and slander too quickly .You are enamoured by the fortune and prosperity modernity offers that you think all things “modern ” are right .i understand that right is subjective but regarding homosexuality every individuals subconscience knows it is wrong .Anyone who accepts this has tragically fallen under their spell .
california is one of the most liberal and gay friendly states in the u.s. so if they reject it you should stop and reexamine your “equal rights” wild rant .
personally i choose to cherry pick “modern” creations only if they appeal to my strong moral values .I believe in equality alright .But the question you should ask ourself uring this testing times is “WHERE EXACTLY DO YOU DRAW THE LINE THEN?” .THIS IS A PERFECT EXMPLE OF ABUSING THE FIGHT FOR EQUAL RIGHTS .
FYI
i was duped ignobly by how some self proclaimed “progressives ” have unmanned their very beings .shame on you !!!
“i find you to be nitpicky yet incredibly dumb .It is unfortunate you retorted to a mixutre of anger and slander too quickly”
No one slanderer you btw, it is just trying it on, making it sound that you have been aggrieved which you haven’t, but I get what it is and all…it is really all about disagreeing with your views and you not liking it hence the rant, oops sorry rants…
Do you even know what slander is?…let me give you a hint…slander is never ever in writing alright? and also there are rules to what constitutes slander, you just cant make things up as you go along lol….now you go and wonder about the intelligence which drove you to speak of slander when you don’t seem to know what even what form of defamation it actually is, to someone who does, …
About being angry are you seeing me as your own reflection or what? do you always accuse people of doing the things you do?..
What have I got to be angry about when I can make my point in a measured way, with a measured tone and measure language?… which I have, you on the other hand seem to excel at heckling me in case of what? you change my views on human rights? dream on, and I didn’t even reply in kind to you either nor do I want to frankly, heckling not being for me like, give me a cool head anyday…And I stand my ground me according to the views I hold I am not budging …now leave me alone I have nothing further to say to you, alright?….
There we go again hidaya .This is a time to be “modern” and maintain your composture .Tx for the heads up on what slander is all about .I always am OPEN to learning .Now go meditate…. ,some yoga or tai chi ooopss i mean JUDO in your case if you know what i mean lol .That will cool you off.
always
)
Bisk
Biskut, get over yourself. Who made you the moral authority? Can’t you have a civil discussion without resorting to insults? Like I said before accepting others is not about being cool it is about being a decent human being. Homosexuality is not a choice. Even if it were a choice why can’t people chose who they want to love? We are talking about consenting adults here. You might consider it “perversion and sickness” but thank goodness you don’t get to decide what is right or wrong.
BTW, I think you would be a lot less angry if you were a bit open-minded.
“They are preserving the sanctity of marriage, so that two gay men who’ve been together for twenty-five years can’t get married, but a guy can still get drunk in Vegas and marry a hooker at the Elvis chapel! The sanctity of marriage is saved!” Lea DeLaria
Amen!
It’s interesting how some of us label minorities ‘hypocrites’ for opposing gay marriage, but fail to see the hypocrisy of the gay community which attacks religious organizations for supporting a cause.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg2-2008dec02,0,6411205.column
I voted NO on Prop 8 in California
but……
I never liked the comparison between civil rights and gay rights, I don’t believe they are the same.
Blacks were used as slaves, lintched, raped and murdered for running away etc.
Gays were always FREE
Gays were able to go to school etc.
Blacks were not able to read or write
Gays always have the right to vote.
Blacks did not.
Gays did not have to sit at the back of the bus
Blacks did.
I think they should have the right to get married and be miserable like most people……..let them do it
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