Repositioning Knowledge 630 Comments

pan african

I was recently volunteering for a non-profit organization that was hosting a Pan African film festival as part of its racial tolerance and cultural promotion endeavors. In a city where a black face is pretty scarce, it’s events like these that draw all of us out from our little holes and bring us together to celebrate our cultural diversity through our unity in experiencing a common bond – that of our African heritage.

One of the videos screened that evening was a slideshow lecture by Dr. Kwaku Person-Lynn on African civilizations. I am not sure how many people are familiar with him, but this was the first I heard of him. The purpose of the film/lecture was to give a different perspective on origins of civilization – an African perspective as opposed to a Eurocentric view of the world that floods many history books.

You can watch part of the video here:

It seems that these days in academia there is a backlash against Eurocentrism. I often come across white folks that make a mockery of Eurocentric ideas and I question myself if it is a genuine thirst for a different perspective on their part or if it’s just the latest trend for them. The cool ‘must have’ – Afrocentrism! On a similar note, the Toronto School District is in the middle of a controversy after the School Board trustees approved, at the end of last month, a proposal to create Canada’s first black focused school.

This decision comes as the drop out rate for black students in Toronto hovers around 40%. Proponents argue that these students need to be offered material that they can relate to so as to keep them interested, though there is no saying if that would be the outcome.

Critics say this is a form of segregation, but I say bullshit!! How can it be a form of segregation if you are not banning any interested groups from joining? Yes, white folks are welcome if they’re interested in expanding their knowledge of African history, African contributions and the issues surrounding peoples of African descent. Yeah, there is some substance to the rhetoric of being all-inclusive. But how inclusive is the current school system with its one-sided view anyhow? So why the big fuss?

630 Responses to “Repositioning Knowledge”


  1. 1 Dr. Ethiopia

    http://www.abesha.wordpress.com

    MasinkoMelody,

    The notion that students will be interested in school, if Canada was to create a black focused school is insane. There are many creative ways to get these children to focus back on their studies. If, in Canada, they would like to get the attention of black students, all they must do is include the curriculum they believe to be helpful to black kids, into the schools curriculum.

    It sounds awful and should be unacceptable in today’s society, to have a school system focused on particular racial interests. They can open a Private School and teach “how to make a bomb” if they so choose. But you can’t have a public school financed by tax-payers money and open such a school or any other institution that doesn’t support the interest of “the people”. My friend, i will not allow any white men or black men, to have a school for blacks, it IS segregation at its best. And it is degrading to blacks to accept such a thing. All we ever needed is a chance to have a fair playing field. No short cuts for my children.

    Other than that, i strongly support the general idea you tried to relay on this post. And that is – we should dig deeper into our background and history and not accept what the “white men” tells us matter-of-factly.

    Excellent post.

  2. 2 ÜberMan

    Excuses excuses… You can build the biggest baddest school, even paint the damn thing BLACK but if the students are not interested & the parent are not invested in their kids education/lives then the dropout rate will skyrocket rather than “hover”. Both the problem & the solution I believe is entrenched in the “Family”. The focus should be that rather than all these BS about inclusion & segregation. As far as I can tell 1 + 1 is still 2 wherever & however you teach it. Wearing a dashiki doesn’t help you learn better. I wonder how many people would cry foul if a school was dedicated to “white” culture & they even said “ya all” coloreds are welcome to attend & learn about Stonewall Jackson & white supremacy.

    I luv the vid though…

    PS I have one thing to say to all the “blacks” that are outraged by the one-sidedness of the school systems. Get a damn degree & come back to the inner cities & teach. Change the system if you dare. Interesting how we have so much & still complain but people in the 50s & 60s changed governments & toppled ideologies w/ so much less.

  3. 3 Anon

    [quote comment="131186"] I wonder how many people would cry foul if a school was dedicated to “white” culture & they even said “ya all” coloreds are welcome to attend & learn about Stonewall Jackson & white supremacy.

    [/quote]
    Hello! where do you live and where do you come from? Like me, if you did attend JH and HS here in the states, you would know better not to make that statement. Yes, the current system does teach, if you want to call it white culture, white history what have you. Please go open an a history book taught in high school or grade school and look at what they teach. Yes Stonewall Jackson is taugh, and he is a hero.
    Tired of hilly billy lines…

  4. 4 Hidaya

    Critics say this is a form of segregation, but I say bullshit!! How can it be a form of segregation if you are not banning any interested groups from joining? Yes, white folks are welcome if they’re interested in expanding their knowledge of African history, African contributions and the issues surrounding peoples of African descent. Yeah, there is some substance to the rhetoric of being all-inclusive. But how inclusive is the current school system with its one-sided view anyhow? So why the big fuss

    Masinko melody, thank you for an interesting post.

    My problem is I agree and dont agree with your post at the same time which a no brainer lol.

    When I agree with youand it seems there has been studies shown in Europe where I live that some children of colour can benefit from education which is not catered by and for the mainstream education system, which is why many faith schools and single sex schools even if they dont come under the same unbrella or specifically schools for black children flourish.

    On the other hand and this is where I disagree is that it creates a system of voluntary segregations and it is a system of education where you never get to see anyone different to you even if the schools takes in other children of other races, how many are going to volunteer to enrol their children where the school caters mainly for black children, would that then mean that the school would cater less to the needs of children who are not black.

    I think we learn much more than education in schools we also learn about diversity and tolerance and acceptance of that diversity. That cannot be learnt later in life I think if we voluntarily segregarate children of all places in education. And it will do very little for race relations too.

    ?

  5. 5 curous

    Masinko.. do you see the cartoon posted on the globe and mail regarding afro centric schools. It was pretty offensive and why we need alternate systems to teach our kids their history. Nolawi, maybe you can do your magic and post it on here.. here is the link:
    http://nubeing.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/can-you-believe-this-racist-cartoon-in-globe-and-mail/

  6. 6 Dr. Ethiopia

    Excuses excuses… You can build the biggest baddest school, even paint the damn thing BLACK but if the students are not interested & the parent are not invested in their kids education/lives then the dropout rate will skyrocket rather than “hover”. Both the problem & the solution I believe is entrenched in the “Family”.

    I couldn’t agree more.

    Interesting how we have so much & still complain but people in the 50s & 60s changed governments & toppled ideologies w/ so much less.

    That line is brilliant. Excellent. Couldn’t say it any better. There are people in life who chose to look at the glass and say “it is half empty”, rather than “half full”. What are we going to do? Come down decades and address them and their cries for foul? Or are we going to choose to carry on? That decision will decide our fate more than anything we could learn from “laughable matters”, such as opening “schools for blacks”.

    http://www.abesha.wordpress.com

  7. 7 curious

    why are afro centric schools be outrageous..we have islamic, Christian schools, chinese schools in Canada.. parents want the choice of how their children are educated, the question is who should bear the cost..tax payers??

  8. 8 Nolawi

    Nothing new here.. this theory is well talked about prior to africans talking about a more globalized education becoming for diverse and less specific.

    check postmodernism theories of education

    One of the slogans of postmodernism is that “there is no center,” and in particular there is no central tradition of scholarship (namely Eurocentric, middle- class, predominantly male) of which other traditions — Native American, Afro-American, Islamic, feminist, working class, for example — are mere colonies. Insofar as we study traditional Western scholarship, we should be wary of its white, middle-class, male bias; and we should (if we belong to one or more other categories) approach it as equals, expecting to contribute as much as we learn. This is in line with the view of knowledge and inquiry noted earlier.

    basically most education in modern era is from the dead white men and education in the post modern era is more global and thereby making education more disbursed. blah blah…

  9. 9 Hidaya

    Curious here in Europe we have all faith schools mostly Jewish and Muslims but it all started with the Catholics and they all teach the national curriculum plus the particular faith the school adhers too. Mostly they have a charitable status or independent status. They get plenty of tax cuts from the government and run on private donations.

  10. 10 Z-House

    Interesting read. A black focused school….haha!

    I don’t know if I support the whole “black students need to be offered material that they can relate to so as to keep them interested.” I don’t believe the current school system, which I have gone through, diminished my interest.
    The root-cause of this problem is not the white man, it’s the parents/guardians of these young African Americans. These kids need be taught how to prioritize what they value most before we can even get into what’s in the history books.

  11. 11 Tsedey

    Needless to say it’s nice post…

    I believe we go to school to enhance our cognitive skills, to develop logical reasoning, awaken our inquisitiveness,learn history and acquire technical knowledge. We don’t necessarily need to be interested in a particular history to stay in school. Now, if that’s the case, learning our own history should be our responsibilty. Let the white men teach what ever, we should go home and do our research and homework, instead of staying home and not going to school. This another weakness of the black race-always point finger at the white men. We should be able to see ourselves beyond that. Let’s move on, I say!

  12. 12 ÜberMan

    Anon:

    Just for your info, I actually started in Elementary school in the states. My classes were always honor classes, AP Pre-Cal, AP Chem etc… I was the only black kid in all my subjects until my senior yr when another brilliant sister joined me. I never felt disadvantaged nor dis-interested. To the contrary, I wanted to excel & prove to every idiotic teacher/counselor who wanted to place me at a “slower paced” class b/c my English was not as good (at first), you know, “where I belonged”. You see, I fought these perceptions all my life so I cannot swallow the stupidity that drives some to want to play in the JV league. I know for a fact I belong in Varsity – as a starter I might add & my kids will too as Dr. Ethiopia stated.

    Now to correct your mis-exegesis of my statement – since I’ve read the history books – you are correct they do teach the Civil War but my assertion was on how they teach it. Would any of you JV leaguers support a school dedicated to the celebration of Slavery, KKK & lynchings as a national past time? I think not, then again nothing you say will surprise me as you support & want to cultivate mediocrity & inferiority. I bet you support NCLB & Bush’s Voucher programs? The funny thing is, none of your supporters have the private $$ to fund this experiment. Talk is cheap – God I sound like Hillary – sad! (Note: my tax $$ will not go to this.)

    BTW – I wish that history was our only problem in the black community, but we seem to use history or lack of it as a crutch at every turn.

    PS Stonewall is no hero of mine… Don’t get confused on me now. Anyhow, what hill-billy lines? SJ? Funny… Well, if you are tired of it then I suggest you direct that energy towards positive change instead of change to undo what our civil right heroes sacrificed to achieve – inclusion & integration. I suggest you open up that same history book & look up Brown v. Board of Education.

  13. 13 Anon

    Uber- what I call hilly billy or some times red neck argument: if they can have BET, why don’t we have WET, if they have February why don’t we have a month dedicated to us, and like that you brought up. My answer: almost every channel is WET, almost every month is dedicated to you, and the current system caters to you. Other than that, you didn’t read my position on this issue and I didn’t criticize your general take on the subject. I only responded to what I think is a red neck argument.

    Assume all you want. Position your self-worth and self-esteem; I hope it helps you.

  14. 14 ÜberMan

    Anon:

    Hello! where do you live and where do you come from? Like me, if you did attend JH and HS here in the states, you would know better not to make that statement. Yes, the current system does teach, if you want to call it white culture, white history what have you. Please go open an a history book taught in high school or grade school and look at what they teach. Yes Stonewall Jackson is taugh, and he is a hero.
    Tired of hilly billy lines…

    You made all the assumption not me. Even when you were too busy dissecting the history books & overlooked the English language, I said nothing. Maybe I should have gotten the hint there. Trying to discuss an issue w/ someone who is advocating change in the educational system & yet doesn’t even know how to spell is really tough. :o Are you sure you went to JH here or was it too much BET that has you writing like DMX? At any rate, I’ll only make one assertion here – I definitely had a better education than you that’s for sure… I’ll leave it at that…

    Peace!

  15. 15 Anon

    (Kiddy gloves on) Sorry for not treating you like the superman or uberman that you are. I should never have called your ‘hypothetical’ statement a redneck argument. I see you mistook that for a personal attack on you. It is not a personal attack. But I can understand superman feels a little deflated: he has super powers; he is always right. Why shouldn’t he feel threatened? Superman is that bullied geek kid from high school with dreams of super powers. If you feel you have attained what you worked for so hard, your super powers, good for you.

    With apology to Masinko and the Bernos community for derailing this discussion.

  16. 16 Dr. Ethiopia

    Uber & Anon

    Whoa! You guys relax. Your both have your view points and that should be that. I can see how you’re letting a sentence here or a sentence there distract you from the main discussion. But that is off-base. You guys came out with guns blazing.

    I must say Anon, if you seriously think through what Uber is saying, i think in the end you have no choice but to agree.

    Listen, you cant justify one bad act with another. And Anon that’s what you’re suggesting here.

    My friend An Eye For An Eye Makes The Whole World Blind.

    We ought to be careful here with how we set our standards, because our kids will inherit it. I think of myself as a human first(who is capable of doing anything) before i consider myself a black. MLK didn’t catch a bullet on the neck for nothing, did he? He was fighting for Equal Rights, first and foremost. Advocating the BLACK thing will only isolate us from this beautiful world which we share with so many others.

    One of the worst crimes against humanity was committed on the Jews. They were the most persecuted and at one time they were people with out a nation. But it is fascinating how they rebounded back from that.

    Black people are still playing the “BLAME GAME”. And where has it gotten us?
    NO WHERE. I guess, for those who don’t wanna be trail blazers and want to make your kids proud one day, go accept your hand-outs.

    Black, white, yellow, or blue. What’s the damn difference? Don’t we all have challenges to tackle on a daily basis? Let’s just tackle this inequality issue and give it our best fight. That will make winning the challenge that much sweeter.

    P.S. Did we have to write all this to say hand-outs are not cool? :) Geez!

    http://www.abesha.wordpress.com

  17. 17 nyalasmoke

    UberMan, your story of triumph in the “varsity league” of the American education/mis education system proves nothing more than pointing out that there are a few lucky exceptions that by some chance are able to rise above general constraints that are inherent to the corrupt education/economic system. Therefore, it lends nothing to the deep rooted systemic and endemic problems that ravage the black and other minority communities in this country. Yes you might have had the fortune of being able to fight to get into AP and honors classes, but most schools in low income neighborhoods that serve predominately minority kids, not only are deprived of that option but it is likely that even the teachers might not know what AP classes are.

    For instance many of the high schools in DC serve mostly Blacks, Latinos and various other immigrant communities. Several studies on achievement gaps found that even the kids that become the valedictorians, the best of the best the graduating class of these “ghetto” schools, are ill prepared to deal with the rigors of big universities and are unable to compete with average students from suburban/predominately white high schools.

    It can even be argued that the great Brown vs. Board of Education ruling never reached its full potential. Yes they integrated the schools but did segregation really end? A lot of experts would argue, otherwise. The composition of the schools is strongly related to the population around the school. And as we all know, cities and even rural areas tend to populate along racial lines. And there are a plethora studies that show schools in black and minority districts are consistently under funded and neglected. I mean in the richest country in the world, a country that can nonchalantly spare trillions of dollars for dumb wars has schools that rival the third world in depravity. I wonder why…

    Even in areas where there a greater diversity prevalent, u can have lots of different races of ppl going to one school but the fact remains that de facto segregation within the school continues to exist. Yes Uber, you were the only nigro in the Honors and Ap classes but did u ever wonder why?

    I went to HS here myself and at that time and as it is today is considered to be one of the most diverse schools in the whole of the US. Yes the county and the state would advertise it as success story of diversity and equality every time they get a chance. But in the end it is nothing but five distinct schools within a school. The magnet and honors program, with some exceptions like you Uber, is almost exclusively White or Asian. Then there are regular classes a sub-par equivalents of the Honors and AP classes that are predominately populated by Blacks and Hispanics. Then there is the ESOL (English to Speakers of other languages) sub school within the school catering to mostly Latinos and other third world immigrants. And finally there is Special-Ed which is almost like a conduit for the so called troubled Black and Hispanic kids to continue their institutionalized existence in the wonderful world of the prison industrial complex. If not prison then they will be lucky if they can find jobs flipping burgers. There is hardly a crossover btwn these groups, especially going upwards is almost impossible. That is supposed to be the prime example of diversity and equal opportunity.

    So I see no reason to hooter and holler over blacks creating their own school teaching what they feel is important to their kids, whether it is history or culture or it could be some ridiculous myth for that matter. As some already pointed out in this thread no one is complaining about Catholic/Jewish/Islamic or any other parochial school who propagate their own versions of culture, history and myth. Last I checked Catholic school math and science is just is the same universal math and science taught everywhere. Why do you think it should be any different at these black schools?

    Black ppl everywhere are still trying to catch up from several centuries of economical, social and psychological oppression that stunted the development of Africans through out the world. Therefore these schools with cultural focus are in my opinion very modest approaches in reversing the entrenched oppression that still exists. Even if Obama-rama becomes president there will still be a very long way to go.

  18. 18 Anon

    Which part do you think I would agree? Don’t even answer that. I have neither disagreed nor agreed on anything said here besides one point where I pointed out that the current school system is Eurocentric. The current system versus black-centered system mentioned by Masinko would be an apple to apple comparison. In that I am not advocating for anything, only trying to understand. The problem and solution part residing within the family, Uber point, I agree. The even if you paint it black line you, Dr. Ethio, congratulated him on was a mockery, making fun of the alternative educational system discussion taking place here. The least you can do is represent them with respect instead of mocking them.

    [quote comment="131461"]Uber & Anon

    I must say Anon, if you seriously think through what Uber is saying, i think in the end you have no choice but to agree.

    http://www.abesha.wordpress.com/quote

  19. 19 ÜberMan

    Anon:

    This is what I took as an attack:

    Assume all you want. Position your self-worth and self-esteem; I hope it helps you.

    Nothing else! Just discuss the issues & all I was saying was you made the assumptions not me. You assumed I didn’t go to school here. You assumed, I have not opened a history book. Ergo my rather harsh response. BTW if you just discuss the issues & leave the personal attacks in your backpack then there will be no need for apologies to Bernos community. Eshi I’m gonna leave it at that. You don’t have to agree w/ me but you do have to provide substantive arguments if you want to advocate such a paradigm-changing thought in our school system. That’s all…

    PS I’m def proud to be a nerd, geek, dweeb etc… Happy to take my six figure salary & stock options to the “school yard” to proclaim my supremacy. A good education tends to do that for you – just a thought you might consider for all those black kids you profess to care about passionately.

  20. 20 ÜberMan

    Nyalasmoke:

    I do believe you hit the issue on the nail here. The problem is poverty, resource etc.. not some white kids sitting in along side blacks. It’s all mathematics – the tax base in the suburbs is rich w/ few socioeconomic needs comparatively. Now, lets just say for arguments sake, I agree w/ an all black school? How do you propose it gets funded? Show me the money brother… Secondly, even if you managed to get the funding & build the best all black schools, you still wont be successful in your goal to turn out educated black kids. Reason – lack family participation. Unless you get parents invested in their kids education, no kid alone is going to traverse any educational system (be it segregated or integrated) successfully to reach his potential. Also, by your own definition most schools are already 100% minorities so the failure has nothing to do w/ the subject that is being thought rather as I mentioned above, its socio-economical.

    As for the Catholic/Jewish/Islamic parochial school, I’m disappointed you could not see the difference. For one, they are privately funded. Second, I as a black man can become a Jew by changing my religion (Sammy Davis Jr.) but I cannot change my skin color. So far no one has succeded although MJ has come close. K enough BS…

    Pls lets not make the false/flawed correlation between an Afrocentric school and student success. Just doesn’t jive. Basically, you are proposing an inexcusably racist solution to a very sensitive social issue.

    To all that are advocating this, I’m dismayed you all are ready to dismiss decades of struggle to de-segregate so easily.

  21. 21 Hidaya

    One of the worst crimes against humanity was committed on the Jews. They were the most persecuted and at one time they were people with out a nation. But it is fascinating how they rebounded back from that.

    This really is quite innacurate. And I hate to make comparisons in human suffering.Mostly it is pointless and it is crass but sometimes it needs to be done. Regretably this is one of those times.

    The Jewish people have suffered enormously during the Nazi Holocaust but they are not the most persecuted people in the world. Again I hate to make those crass comparisons in suffering but it is estimated between 9.5 millions to 12 Africans were forcibly taken into slavery and this is only an estimated figure.

    The Atlantic slave trade, also known as the transatlantic slave trade, was the trade of African people supplied to the colonies of the “New World” that occurred in and around the Atlantic Ocean. It lasted from the 16th century to the 19th century. Most slaves were shipped from West Africa and Central Africa and taken to the New World (primarily Brazil[1]).

    Some slaves were captured by European slave traders through raids and kidnapping, but most were obtained through coastal trading with Africans.[2][3] Most contemporary historians estimate that between 9.4 and 12 million[4][5] Africans arrived in the New World,[6][7] although the number of people taken from their homestead is considerably higher.[8][9]

    The slave-trade is sometimes called the Maafa by African and African-American scholars, meaning “holocaust” or “great disaster” in Swahili. The slaves were one element of a three-part economic cycle—the Triangular Trade and its Middle Passage—which ultimately involved four continents, four centuries and millions of people

    Black people are still playing the “BLAME GAME”. And where has it gotten us?
    NO WHERE. I guess, for those who don’t wanna be trail blazers and want to make your kids proud one day, go accept your hand-outs.

    I think most of the time black people demand equality in a system whether it is the educational system or the justice system which for the most part is discriminatory towards them and their needs. That is not asking for hand outs, more like a fairer system.

  22. 22 ÜberMan

    Nyalasmoke:

    Clarification – inner city schools are 100% minorities (for the most part).

    Answer: No I never wondered why, I was too busy catching up, then passing my white friends in class. (BTW I started in ESOL too lasted a yr. Practically, forced the school to put me in a reg eng class. I mean it was so hard & embarrassing to stand up & read in front of the class – I was so sloooow – but I did it.) ESOL classes were a joke. As you said it was a place to stuff us all idiots in one room to pass the time. The reason I’m telling you all this is, to let you know I didn’t do this alone. My family was instrumental in me getting the best education so they challenged me. Some kids didn’t have that & the results show in their lives today.

  23. 23 curious

    BTW, loving the discussion.. how about Ethiopian centered school for kids growing up in North America-.. you know like the greeks. Our children will devote their Saturday mornings learning history, language, and traditional dance.

  24. 24 Xana

    It is so humorous to hear African intellectuals talking about “creating their own school teaching what they feel is important to their kids, whether it is history or culture”. First of all how can you create a learning centre or an institute, dedicated to your history when you don’t even understand your history, when most of our so-called intellectuals treaded their Amharic history books for an English text book. You want to educate your kid their history when you, yourself learned your history form the white man.
    Before you can even talk about educating others, you need to decolonize your mind. Its shame that we Ethiopians still read our history in English, while we have 1000s of books written in Amharic and Geez; what’s wrong with them?

  25. 25 Tsedey

    Curious,

    Terrific idea! am down with that. Saturday mornings for Ethiopian Studies and values…

  26. 26 nyalasmoke

    Uber de-segregation is not an end in itself, but rather it was supposed to be a means to the ultimate goal of achieving a level playing field. The whole idea behind Brown vs. Board of Educations was to show the “separate but equal” doctrine is totally bunk because equality can not be achieved through separation. But I am arguing that segregation of a different kind is still here despite Brown v. Board of education and the efforts the civil rights movement. As a result inequality still persists and that dream is yet to be achieved.

    So what I am saying is the de-segregation effort that u fully support was tried and I admit it was successful to some degree but overall it has not gotten African ppl to the level of equality envisioned by Brown v. Board of education. It has fallen far short, otherwise we wouldn’t be here discussing it. So I say there is still room for experimentation and these Afrocentric schools are one such effort. They might not be the panacea to all the ills of black ppl but it is one extra option whether it be funded by individuals or tax payers.

    For one these schools are not racist and simply cannot be. They are just taking steps to focus on their African roots, history and heritage. Likewise there is nothing wrong with focusing in studying the Roman and Greek history and culture or the history of the American ruling patriarchy (the prevalent curriculum in most American schools). I mean u can even study the rise and fall of the Third Reich if u will Übermensch:) (sorry cheap shot) That does no automatically make you racist. The moment it u become racist is when u start espousing supremacist tendencies and then when u attempt to impose and subject others to that worldview. Yes that is not to deny that there are no black supremacists that are as delusional and as potentially dangerous as any supremacist group out there but to say that this Afro-centric schools are racist is a bit a stretch and not to mention intellectually dishonest.

    Finally, please enlighten me on the differences between Afro-centric schools and the Catholic/Jewish/Islamic parochial school

  27. 27 curious

    Nylasmoke.. so eloquently stated.. I missed you from the BP press days..

  28. 28 nyalasmoke

    Yes Uber some of us are very lucky to have parents who got our backs. (My story is almost as identical as yours). But what if their parents were also casualties of an oppressive system that spans several generation. Where are they supposed to get the guidance and inspiration to go on when none is there. What are you going to do when u are surrounded by tragedy and inundated by false hopes. I mean it is amazing how far black ppl have come since the time of slavery. It shows the resilience and strength it takes to survive centuries upon centuries of abuse and suppression. But I still think there is a long way to go.

  29. 29 Anon

    well said Nyalasmokes.

  30. 30 nyalasmoke

    Hey Curious, how u doing! Yeah, its been a long time… I miss the press days too but good ridance :) I have been more productive since then :)

  31. 31 ÜberMan

    Nyalasmokes:

    Cheap shot notwithstanding (actually, I welcome this kinda civil discourse w/ a jab here & there), I think we are really not that far a part. You keep citing the root of the problem – the parents or lack there of (again & again) and yet you want to resolve it by establishing Afro-centric schools. How will that address the parent issue which I believe & I think you agree is the root cause? The fact there is an economical problem doesn’t dissipate w/ the creation of these schools either. So I suggest lets not lose site of the problem & address that 1st & then we can discuss the all black curriculum later once we get the students to read & write.

    Board of Educations was to show the “separate but equal” doctrine is totally bunk because equality can not be achieved through separation.

    I could not agree more so lets not try separation in the name of Afrocentrism. What we need to do is fix the current system & make it more equitable.

    As for the religion based vs race based schools: one big difference is the former not funded by tax $. Now if you are advocating privately funded race based schools then by all means go right ahead. No one has the right to dictate on how you spend/invest your $$ but when you are talking about public tax $ then I and a million others will oppose any such attempt. I have less opposition to the privately funded religion based schools b/c race doesn’t come to play in the equation. Just my belief that race is the single most divisive element in modern society. (This is not a fact just my opinion.)

  32. 32 masinkomelody

    As for the religion based vs race based schools: one big difference is the former not funded by tax $.

    Not in Canada – the government has been funding faith based schools. http://www.cbc.ca/ontariovotes2007/features/features-faith.html

    The education minister has made it clear that there will be no funding for the afrocentric school though…

  33. 33 Anon

    [quote comment="131529"]

    As for the religion based vs race based schools: one big difference is the former not funded by tax $. .)[/quote]

    Partially true. Parochial schools are subsidized by the state. All text books with the exception of those not used in public schools like religion and vocabulary texts are supplied by the state. Those not supplied are purchased by the students. I should know, I attended one.

  34. 34 Dr. Ethiopia

    Hidaya,

    I said :

    “One of the worst crimes against humanity was committed on the Jews. They were the most persecuted and at one time they were people with out a nation. But it is fascinating how they rebounded back from that.”

    And Hidaya, you wrote:

    “This really is quite innacurate. And I hate to make comparisons in human suffering.Mostly it is pointless and it is crass but sometimes it needs to be done. Regretably this is one of those times.
    The Jewish people have suffered enormously during the Nazi Holocaust but they are not the most persecuted people in the world. Again I hate to make those crass comparisons in suffering but it is estimated between 9.5 millions to 12 Africans were forcibly taken into slavery and this is only an estimated figure.”

    Really? You must be kidding me right? Just because i failed to say one of the most, you were driven to take the time and write a whole reply about it.

    Very cute.

    For beginners, it’s not good idea to try to split hairs. It would be a wasted effort.

    Secondly, choose your battles wisely and maybe try to word your sentences a little better, without making it sound like you’re testing my knowledge.

    Thirdly
    , this battle you’re picking on this medium is going to be a very public one and in order to win it you must be one of the smartest people around. In other words, you are picking a public fight that you will lose. And quoting me on my omission of some words – here and there – is extraneous, at best.

    My interest is to participate on the issues regarding this blog post and chip-in my $0.02.

    And yes i said this too, and you quoted me :

    “Black people are still playing the “BLAME GAME”. And where has it gotten us?
    NO WHERE. I guess, for those who don’t wanna be trail blazers and want to make your kids proud one day, go accept your hand-outs.”

    I still believe that to be true. What was wrong with that statement? That’s a fact. Do we really need to go deep into that, because i can write 20 pages worth of lecturing at one seating. And i wouldn’t ask for a round-of-applause like you’re trying to do.

    Am i not your typical black person who you enjoy to hear making excuses and you can’t stand me? If that’s the case, i suggest you come back when your soft skin grows thicker.

    And, technically, you’re right.

    I guess next time i must type my comments with a chip on my shoulder (chip=Hidaya) :)

    Don’t test me in any of these fields (History, Politics, Geography, Business, and so much more, that would sound gibberish to you)

    So should i quote you on your practicing English on this post by typing non-existent words like – never mind . . .

    Go back edit yourself.

    My friend, you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.

    P.S. My whole post was to set an example that black people could follow, as far as leaving history behind and doing what you can today so tomorrow can be brighter for your kids. All i said is, Jews are doing it why shouldn’t we? Because we had 4 to 5 million more casualties in the slave trade than they did in the holocaust?
    Laughable! (Again, excuses by any means)

  35. 35 ÜberMan

    Masinkomelody:

    One country at a time man. lets resolve this one 1st.. :) I know nothing about Canada but it does not surprise me but they also don’t have the race issues we have either.

    Anon:

    Did not know that & if true I still oppose any kinda subsidy using my tax $. Besides I thought the Supreme Court has ruled any subsidy using public funds was a violation of the 1st Amendment? Then again the States Rights issue is another beast all in itself.

  36. 36 Hidaya

    To briefly derail the topic, I would like to ask, why are race specific schools more worrisome than faith schools?.Here we worry about faith schools in limiting children’s interaction with other faiths in a multi-cultural and multi-faith society.

    Hi Anon,

    Partially true. Parochial schools are subsidized by the state. All text books with the exception of those not used in public schools like religion and vocabulary texts are supplied by the state. Those not supplied are purchased by the students. I should know, I attended one

    Here is the opposite of the US, faith schools were required until recently to provide 90% of their cost of running their schools and the State funded the remaining ten percent. Just before the new year all faith schools had to make an agreement with the government that they would promote tolerance ie non demonisation of other religions and social cohesion in exchange for State funding which was more or less non existent just five months ago.

    Anon I would like to hear your take on faith schools since you have been to one.

    Why do you think that the same worries about issues of tolerance and integration that are expressed over race schools dont arise about faith schools? I am not agaisnt the idea just dont know enough about it but it is pertinent that some of the best schools in the league tables of schools here are faith schools, still we seem to think it is appropriate to worry abou them even when they produce excellent pupils in contrast to the State schools which are really bad here.

  37. 37 Hidaya

    I will make it short this time. You were still *factually innacurate* *That it the point and no other regardless.

    The rest are words. Seemingly angry ones too, speaking of public battles, loss, premature victory, threats, chips and shoulders. I dont think I have left anything out. Whatever. I am not riled, nor am I reciprocating. I pointed out a factual innacury in a statement you made, if you didnt like it you could have just said that. That is all i did. It seemed it riled you. Must find someone else to battle with. I dont do battles unless they are mine. This one you speak about is moreyours than mine.

    One of the worst crimes against humanity was committed on the Jews. They were the most persecuted and at one time they were people with out a nation. But it is fascinating how they rebounded back from that.

    And Hidaya, you wrote:

    This really is quite innacurate. And I hate to make comparisons in human suffering.Mostly it is pointless and it is crass but sometimes it needs to be done. Regretably this is one of those times.

    The Jewish people have suffered enormously during the Nazi Holocaust but they are not the most persecuted people in the world. Again I hate to make those crass comparisons in suffering but it is estimated between 9.5 millions to 12 Africans were forcibly taken into slavery and this is only an estimated figure.

    Really? You must be kidding me right? Just because i failed to say one of the most, you were driven to take the time and write a whole reply about it.

    Very cute.

    For beginners, it’s not good idea to try to split hairs. It would be a wasted effort.

    Secondly, choose your battles wisely and maybe try to word your sentences a little better, without making it sound like you’re testing my knowledge.

    Thirdly, this battle you’re picking on this medium is going to be a very public one and in order to win it you must be one of the smartest people around. In other words, you are picking a public fight that you will lose. And quoting me on my omission of some words – here and there – is extraneous, at best.

    My interest is to participate on the issues regarding this blog post and chip-in my $0.02.

    And yes i said this too, and you quoted me :

    Black people are still playing the “BLAME GAME”. And where has it gotten us? NO WHERE. I guess, for those who don’t wanna be trail blazers and want to make your kids proud one day, go accept your hand-outs.

    I still believe it to be true. What was wrong with that statement? That’s a fact. Do we need to really go deep into that, because i can write 20 pages worth of lecture here in one seating. And i wouldn’t ask for a round-of-applause like you’re trying to do.

    Am i not your typical black person who you enjoy to hear making excuses and you can’t stand me? If that’s the case, i suggest you come back when your soft skin grows thicker.

    And, technically, you’re right.

    I guess next time i must type my comments with a chip on my shoulder (chip=Hidaya)

    Don’t test me in any of these fields (History, Politics, Geography, Business, and so much more, that would sound gibberish to you)

    So should i quote you on your practicing English on this post by typing non-existent words like – never mind . . .

    Go back edit yourself.

    My friend, you don’t bring a knife to a gun fight.

    P.S. My whole post was to set an example that black people could follow, as far as leaving history behind and doing what you can today so tomorrow can be brighter for your kids. All i said is, Jews are doing it why shouldn’t we? Because we had 4 to 5 million more casualties in the slave trade than they did in the holocaust?
    Laughable! (Again, excuses by any means)

  38. 38 Dr. Ethiopia

    I will take my wins. Your defeat is accepted. Next time i comment, and there will be next time, i will make sure to leave some angles open for you to attack.

    ‘Nuff said.

  39. 39 Hidaya

    I dont speak your language of battle for no reason, or actually *for reasons of being corrected when wrong*. You dont like that. I get it. You dont like either saying you were wrong or someone else pointing out to you when you are wrong in asserting something. I get it. Is that the way you like to win? by not admitting you are wrong when you are and when and if someone points it out you get really really mad at them and launch into a tirade?. I dont like winning that way so I will hand to you your *imaginary victory* Still you do know you were wrong at least?.

  40. 40 Anon

    Ok, I want to but again I dont want to let this one go. Some harsh words from Dr. Ethio after preaching the below today. Replace Anon with Dr. Ethio for the effect and Uberman with Hidaya only in the context below.

    [quote comment="131461"]Uber & Anon

    Whoa! You guys relax. Your both have your view points and that should be that. I can see how you’re letting a sentence here or a sentence there distract you from the main discussion. But that is off-base. You guys came out with guns blazing.

    I must say Anon, if you seriously think through what Uber is saying, i think in the end you have no choice but to agree.

    Listen, you cant justify one bad act with another. And Anon that’s what you’re suggesting here.

    My friend An Eye For An Eye Makes The Whole World Blind.

    We ought to be careful here with how we set our standards, because our kids will inherit it.

    http://www.abesha.wordpress.com/quote

  41. 41 Dr. Ethiopia

    Wrong? Not even close. In a rush to emphasize a point, i overlooked something minor. Very minor but valid.

    Anon:
    Was i wrong to for that? I guess duke it out, my friend.

    I felt i was attacked by someone who i thought was more offended by me mentioning the Jews than by any of my missing words that is non-issue. In that case, i was not left with any choice, but . . .

    Good looking out for your friend “Hidaya”. I am sure he/she appreciated your loyalty.

    Cute.

  42. 42 Anon

    Thanks I actually tried to do the same for my dear friend that you did for uber. That was cute too. :)

    [quote comment="131564"]

    Good looking out for your friend “Hidaya”. I am sure he/she appreciated your loyalty.

    Cute.[/quote]

  43. 43 Dr. Ethiopia

    LMAO.

    Anon:
    MasinkoMelody, must be looking for ya, for being responsible for all this. Masinko, you know i got mad respect and love for ya.

    blame this one >>>>> Anon
    :)

  44. 44 Hidaya

    Wrong? Not even close. In a rush to emphasize a point, i overlooked something minor. Very minor but valid.

    Whether it is minor or not it is an factual innacuracy that iis my point. Factual innacuracies are harmful because they distort thruth. That is one additional point I am making now. I pointed it out politetly enough to you. Your reaction was to launch a tirade, I refuse to react to any of it as the point I wanted to make was more important to me than exchange unpleasant words with you. I refrain from doing that because I choose to not because I cant a bit like you have *chosen* ,to overreact.

    By the way if I was rushing to make a statement and by mistake or accident I made an innacurate statement and you or anyone else pointed it out to me, my first reaction would not be one of anger, my first reaction would be to apologise for it, correct it or myself and thank the person who brought it to my attention. Mild reaction compared to yours..

    Anon

    Was i wrong to for that? I guess duke it out, my friend.

    Good looking out for your friend “Hidaya”. I am sure he/she appreciated your loyalty.

    Cute.

    This would be so much easier if you didnt try to involve innocent bystanders like Anon whom as far as I can see the only thing he has done is bring out the contrast in your response to myself and others. Is that not allowed either in your world?

    I did not *attack* you I pointed out a factual innacuracy you made. That is not to attack by anyone’s estimation, more to challenge of what is mistakenly asserted, as you have.

    Secondly I am offended by the insinuation in this sentence.I think there are lines you must not cross for decency sake.Dont take the argument where it was never going. This was about you saying something which is not historically or factually true.

    You were left with a *choice*. You could have stick to the argument and not try and sway it in other ways because you want it to suit you so you could have your imaginary victory or the equally imaginary battle, come to that.

    I felt i was attacked by someone who i thought was more offended by me mentioning the Jews than by any of my missing words that is non-issue. In that case, i was not left with any choice, but . . .

    Anon I am sorry you have been included in imaginary battles and war of words I really am…btw sharp as ever…

  45. 45 Grand Ma

    Ummmm….interesting comments from all of you! Easy to see what the sameness brings to the world. Just my opinion :=(

  46. 46 winta

    Cool Post…I agree …Positive similar case-Feminist movemnet. It was able to tap some things from the black right movement(such as affirmative action).Now,time to give back. Tapping history and re-writing it brought great changes for women. Same will wrok for race too.I say, Good start Canada!

  47. 47 Inat

    Hello

    I don’t have confidence in the public school system. They have overcroded classses. The teacher can’t spend one on one time with each student.
    I am planning to home school my kids next year.

  48. 48 Inat

    oops!!!! overcroded I meant overcrowded

  49. 49 masinkomelody

    Inat, i don’t know exactly how i feel about homeschooling…i believe learning is social and is best done when you can interact and discuss ideas with others…good luck though and make sure you load them up with all perspectives:)

  50. 50 ÜberMan

    Masinkomelody:

    [I] believe learning is social and is best done when you can interact and discuss ideas with others… all perspectives

    Now that is interesting! Social, interact & discuss ideas with others, all perspectives so do you think an all black school limits this interaction and thus diminishing the scope of learning?

    But “good luck though and make sure you load [the black kids] up with all perspectives :) ” ha ha…

  51. 51 Dinich

    I agree MM, home schooling has to be supplemented by a lot of social intereactios.

    But if the parents have the guts I think it is the best way to be in charge of steering their future. The problem with the school system the way it is now is that kids learn way more stuff from their peers than they learn from their teachers. And depending on who they hang out with, that can be disastrous.

  52. 52 Anon

    For the most part suburban public schools are good: good facilities and low teacher/student ratio. And some urban public schools depending on where you live are good as well. Find out where in your city the public schools are good and move to that area and you have catholic schooling option for about 5K a year… you get discount if you are a member at the church and believe in the pope. Regardless what you do, where you send your kids, after school homeschooling is essential for success. You give them the one-on-one relationship.

    Hidaya, will get back to you on that Q. Not from work, however.

    [quote comment="131682"]Hello

    I don’t have confidence in the public school system. They have overcrowded classses. The teacher can’t spend one on one time with each student.
    I am planning to home school my kids next year.[/quote]

  53. 53 masinkomelody

    Now that is interesting! Social, interact & discuss ideas with others, all perspectives so do you think an all black school limits this interaction and thus diminishing the scope of learning?

    No, i don’t think an all black school limits this interaction..Why would it? Even within a racially homogenous group there is diversity to learn from. Eventhough one may attend an afrocentric school, the chance that they will not integrate Eurocentric perspectives will be really non-existent. I’m not advocating a rejection of one perspective over another…but having the option of diverting from mainstream is a good option to have is my point.

  54. 54 Anon

    [quote comment="131765"]Masinkomelody:

    all black school limits this interaction and thus diminishing the scope of learning?

    But “good luck though and make sure you load [the black kids] up with all perspectives :) ” ha ha…[/quote]

    This was cleared up in the discussion with Nyalasmokes. The urban schools failing in my city and some other cities are ALL black unless you want to count the token immigrants and latinos.

  55. 55 ÜberMan

    Masinkomelody:

    WHAT? “All perspectives” means just that ALL including the Eurocentric one. So by taking whites out of the classroom, you are def reducing the diversity of the group ergo LIMITING the scope or learning.

    Oh btw, there is diversity b/n 2 people & you can learn from each other. Still LIMITED though compared to the full potential of a fully diversified group that includes ALL of US.

    Eventhough one may attend an Afrocentric school, the chance that they will not integrate Eurocentric perspectives will be really non-existent.

    How can you “integrate Eurocentric perspectives” while excluding whites from the classroom? You yourself stated “learning is social” & thus by your own definition the scope of learning will be LIMITED when you take out whites from this social makeup. Or are you suggesting since the schools will teach the white side from the text books – that will suffice & is not LIMITED? This makes no sense to me but may be I’m dense as I didn’t attend an all black school? Not a lucid argument from my perspective… Sorry :(

  56. 56 Hidaya

    Take your time Anon, I understand…

    Strange all the schools failing here in the inner cities and most have a majority of black pupils, but here there is an additional factor in that State schools dont get enough money form the government infact their budgets is cut on a yearly basis.

    Then other things are said to bring about this state of affairs ranging from classrooms sizes to self esteem issues plus the social deprivation of some areas, lack of parental guidance in some of the school’s children lives we get school leavers who cant read or write and those are the reasons we are told. Would an Afrocentric schools system would have helped these children?

    This was cleared up in the discussion with Nyalasmokes. The urban schools failing in my city and some other cities are ALL black unless you want to count the token immigrants and latinos.

    you have catholic schooling option for about 5K a year… you get discount if you are a member at the church and believe in the pope. Regardless what you do, where you send your kids, after school homeschooling is essential for success. You give them the one-on-one relationship.

    Anon this is no joke honest, the demand for Catholic schools is so high non Catholics here go to the extent of converting to Catholicism and going to Cathechism classes and Church in order to get their child or children to their schools, or they move to an area where there are Catholic schools within their catchment area (ie a official agreed number of miles between school and home).The State of public education here is so dismal that people are willing to lie to get the children to decent schools

    They have excellent schools and it is semi private ie Independent so they dont cost as much as private schools and they produce excellent all rounded students, some of the best here.

  57. 57 tsedu

    who is this ,Dr.Ethiopia, person I kinda like him .

  58. 58 Hilbet

    Very interesting discussion

    If you haven’t already; check out Little Rock Central High School, 50 years latter on HBO. In school that surprisingly has 60% blacks, it is sad to see only countless of them are enrolled in the upper level classes. The beneficiaries of the school becoming famous for its integration in 1957 are whites. They are using the fame of the school and the funding it gets to further better themselves. Mind you, these are kids as stated by one of the white parent “who can easily afford private schooling” that chose to go there. It is heart breaking to see the black kids struggling with their academics due to their socio-economic problems. These are kids facing dangerous living environments. Some have to fend for themselves at such an early age while the parent/s is working multiple jobs. While the parents of their white counterparts are checking and following up on their kids education be it by attending parent teacher meeting or checking their work and setting higher goals.

    ÜberMan, you remind me of this kid who is the only black in most of the AP classes. How he differed from the other blacks in his school was, he had two parents at home, he lives in the suburbs and it seems his parents were in the higher tax bracket. He as his AP taking peers is in the same economic and financial situation. The challenges these kids face is more than finding a subject they can relate too. As nyalasmoke said if experimenting to see Black Focused school would bring an end to the high rate of dropouts, then why not. But it seems the problem is bigger then changing school curriculum.

  59. 59 ÜberMan

    Hilbet:

    No doubt $ makes a lot of difference in the final out come but make no mistake the issue lies in the parents’ involvement. My parents were poor immigrants, didn’t have two parents at home due to visa issues (only Dad came to the states then the kids). My father didn’t even know what a high tax-bracket was. Only thing I can tell you that was different from the poor black kids I remember living in that God forsaken apartment complex was, I had a family that cared & was involved in my education & they made sure I did my work. BTW I took two buses (just to get to the school bus stop) & then the school bus (for the last leg of the trip) to attend a better school. Believe me this was hard on my father financially (bus fares) & on me as well (long a$$ bus rides). To this day I HATE bus rides. :( As for relating to my AP classmates, only in my day dreams & that is a bit of a stretch. While they headed off to European summer vacations, my “dis-advantaged-excuses-free” a$$ was cleaning McDonald’s restrooms. At any rate, why is it so hard to see the solution or experiment needs to be directed at the real problem the PARENTS not the curriculum?

  60. 60 Mamitu

    A few weeks ago I had a conversation with a teacher from Blair High School(which is one of the most diverse high schools in the Wahington Suburbs). The same teacher used to teach in Fairfax school system in mostly white highschools. She told me that a lot of kids come in so damaged that it is hard for the schools to reach them and be able to teach them what they need to learn. I don’t know what needs to be done but it has to be drastic enough to make a difference.

  61. 61 Anon

    Uber, this is pretty easy. Here you are ‘blaming’ parents and yet you are denying CHOICE to parents. That choice is in the form of voucher or charter school, the very tools that would empower parents to be the driver of their children’s destiny. I would think that would be down your ally since the problem you have identified is a republican invention as much as the solution, voucher and charter school. You implied you are against voucher, I think. What is the solution you envision and would be happy to spend your tax money on? If I am not wrong some of the chartered schools in existence do provide black-centered education. I have seen kids in urban area come out of a chartered school clothed in an African influenced uniform. Lets get back to Nyalasmokes question: what would be the difference between a public, parochial and chartered school in an urban setting? You mentioned funding. What about curriculum, demographics, salary, expense, result…. Any idea?

    I am more inclined to say that the solution to education is similar to the solution to the energy problem: multiple source of energy; multiple choices of school. Without protest, I am willing to spend my tax money on anything that works as if tax money is the issue when war is the priority.

  62. 62 ÜberMan

    Anon:

    You assume WAY too much? All I’m saying the 1st thing that needs to happen is parents need to be accountable and for your information, I’m not denying anyone of CHOICE, just my tax $. Go back & read my reply to Nyalasmokes. As far as the WAR, I’m also against it so don’t clutter the discussion by adding. I’m more of a peel away the clutter to get to the core of the issue kinda guy.

    “[C]urriculum, demographics, salary, expense, result…” my answer is simple: Lets get the kids to add, subtract, read & write 1st & as stated earlier, we were poor but we made do. So although $ matters the point is if you have the will there is a way.

    Vouchers – now that is a bad idea for the urban schools & the poor. All that will happen is, the ones w/ means will take their $5K to the private schools that cost 12-15K per yr. They will be able to subsidize the tuition & the poor will be left w/ worse schools than they have now where they will have no choice but to send their kids along w/ the $5K.

  63. 63 Rahwina

    Hey Sinko, really nice to see you here…so greatly miss you ppl from BP…so I have a Q about what Afrocentric Schools entail. if by Afrocentric, we’re talking about the Black people struggle revolving around Slavery and the after effect of it, can that not be packed up in an African Studies program. First of all, a focus on Slavery has robbed many the real knowledge about African People’s History pre-slavery which dates a whole long time! Secondly, the current state of African issues is not all based on Slavery and the culture dates WAAAY back which is truly what has shaped their societies, but that aside…This program could include any African related aspects: Be it Geography, History, Social/Anthropology classes, music classes, language classes…you name it. In a decade that we even have Bachelor/Graduate degrees in African Studies, why do we need an Afrocentric school if not for segregation. Firstly, I know I don’t want my tax$$ to be going there. Because an Afrocentric school, I would imagine, will produce sheltered outlooks. Secondly, should we soon be expecting an Asian-focus school and perhaps a lil later, a Latin American school….first of all, I think Black issues are more of a racial thing and not interchangeable with African. Caribbeans have an African root but are not Africans, they have a history in their own right. Why teach a Jamaican boy about a struggle in Rwanda before he even knows the history of his ancestors. Just like a Scottish is different from a French, yet they’re both white,we can’t give ppl history and focus depending on their race and if this is a black-focused school…then it not only an Afrocentric school as it’s focus includes more than African issues and I would consider it segregation , whether it’s open to other races or not. If it is an Afrocentric school, then why not replace it with African studies, in line with Asian studies, Native Canadian studies, latin American studies, European studies! This is breaking down a society, however inadequate right now, to pockets of societies and is nothing short of a destructive move, even if it is to improve the 40% drop out. I would Love to have an Ethiopian studies added too but I wouldn’t want an Ethiopian focused school. Education empowers not only academically but socially by opening minds to different perspectives, this school would limit the variety of perspectives.

  64. 64 masinkomelody

    Masinkomelody:

    WHAT? “All perspectives” means just that ALL including the Eurocentric one. So by taking whites out of the classroom, you are def reducing the diversity of the group ergo LIMITING the scope or learning.

    I didn’t say anything about taking whites out of the classroom… If that happens they are doing so by their own choice. All i’m saying is that there are those that feel that the school system’s eurocentric focus is a system that for them creates a feeling of not belonging or being part of. i.e. great African accomplishments and contributions to knowledge are not highlighted like european contributions are, creating a lack of role models (those they can relate to racially) to look up to. Now whether one needs a role model out of a history book or one right infront of them (parents) is debatable, but my personal history and that of my origin is different, so i cannot dismiss this argument based on the fact that i have fared well in a eurocentric system.

    How can you “integrate Eurocentric perspectives” while excluding whites from the classroom? You yourself stated “learning is social” & thus by your own definition the scope of learning will be LIMITED when you take out whites from this social makeup. Or are you suggesting since the schools will teach the white side from the text books – that will suffice & is not LIMITED? This makes no sense to me but may be I’m dense as I didn’t attend an all black school? Not a lucid argument from my perspective… Sorry

    Uber, I don’t know why you’re stuck on the notion of taking whites out…i hope i did not imply that in my post…the school is open to all and boils down to choices! As far as integrating eurocentric perspective, it’s really not hard considering where we live. Such a perspective permeates everyday life from shows on tv, to books in the library, to academic articles…there’s plenty of that going around. You make it sound like these kids will be doomed to this afrocentric school and perspective for life…whether they like it or not, that interaction is inevitable as they move on to higher learning…

    anyways, i do appreciate your take on the matter – it’s not like i’m saying this is the magic formula that will undo the 40% drop out rate…but the parents and the community pushed for it for a reason and maybe they are right maybe they are not…time will tell that. By the way i read there are such schools in the US that have been successful in reversing drop out rates eg. The Malcolm X Academy in Detroit…i’m interested in hearing more about it within the context of our discussion, if you know of it…

  65. 65 masinkomelody

    Rahwi, so nice to read from you too..i do miss BP:)

    Valid questions you have…take a look at this article…

    http://www.csse.ca/CJE/Articles/FullText/CJE21-2/CJE21-2-06Dei.pdf

    It’s by one of the main proponents for the Afrocentric school in Canada…a lengthy read, but informative.

  66. 66 Anon

    Uber, I understand we are all over the map and not enough empirical data involved in what we are discussing. I will say this: you keep bringing up parents, holding parents accountable… You can hold the parents of kids that went to school with you accountable; same with the parents of kids that went to school with me. How does one enforce parental accountability anyhow? The kids in need of rescue come from a family that does not exist in the same way that you and I know a family. The family is dysfunctional family. The urban black kids from a functional family with mom and dad at home earning above poverty income, they went to catholic school with me. The poor living with one parent household or living with grandparents go to urban schools that are failing them. In that setting how can one insist that the key to the solution is the family when, again Nyala has pointed out the black family is historically and systematically a traumatized family. There simply has to be more than one way of helping urban poor kids. If the help comes in the form of say a charter school where teachers allocate more time to African American contribution to America, or reading the Invincible Man instead of Tom Sawyer (good book, but ‘mos def not for all black teenagers)… and so be it.

  67. 67 Anon

    You and I are outsiders in the U.S. And so are all the other successful immigrants in the US. I embrace my outsider status; it does not conflict with my identity. Damn! Imagine the conflict in feeling an outsider in your own land. That is the life of an African American growing up in America. All through out primary school, it’s the identity of the other you are taught, and briefly your status is mentioned and subliminally you are taught you don’t really matter. The gab is filled if you have a loving and caring family, if not, find that love and care in the gang. School is a white thing to do.

  68. 68 Helen

    you keep bringing up parents, holding parents accountable… You can hold the parents of kids that went to school with you accountable; same with the parents of kids that went to school with me. How does one enforce parental accountability anyhow? The kids in need of rescue come from a family that does not exist in the same way that you and I know a family.

    Good point Anon. Also you have to realize Uber that their parents or parent went to the same dysfunctional school that they did. If you want to understand how horrible these inner-city schools could be just read “Savage Inequalities, by Jonathan Kozel” and you can try and imagine being one of those kids that have to be educated in that type of environment. It is pretty heart breaking. I am not sure in the situations described in the book if an Afro-centric curriculum could work but it certainly wouldn’t hurt. The education system in this country is in pretty bad shape. It has failed many of its minority kids (dropout rate is very high among Hispanics, Native Americans and Blacks). I don’t see any of the candidates addressing it adequately but I guess that is beyond the discussion of this post.

    My question to you masinkomelody is this is Toronto we are talking about and the black kids in question there are probably first, second and third generation Africans and West Indians (I am assuming) do you think the problem in the high dropout rate is attributed to the lack of identity in these kids or is there more at play here? (I don’t know what.) My sources might be anecdotal but I hear there is a high dropout rate in the second generation Ethiopians/Eritreans here in the US as well. What can we attribute to that?

    I say as long as the school deals with the basics of education (science, Math, reading writing etc…) I don’t think there should be a problem if it chooses to be Afro-centric.

  69. 69 Anon

    I hear there is a high dropout rate in the second generation Ethiopians/Eritreans here in the US as well. What can we attribute to that?

    Because those kids attend schools that are failing almost everybody, the same urban schools we are talking about. Little or no guidance at home for many reasons. And they have bought into the underachiever culture of urban school.

    I once spent a day in an urban public high school because my Erit friend insisted it’s a must see entertainment. The indian teacher faces the board *trying* to teach algebra and one kid in the back is singing in *opera*. Everyone laughs. And silence as soon as the indian teacher turns to face the class. He knows not who is singing. And again he would turn and try to teach algebra. The kid would resume his singing and everybody laughs. ‘Till the end of the class opera and laugh and silence.

  70. 70 ÜberMan

    All,

    I’m kinda frustrated no one seems to see the simple point I’m trying to make. I guess as the saying goes, if everyone is wrong then start looking in the mirror. I suppose I may not be making a clear argument. Let me try an analogy then:

    There are two roads, one you know is very bad (full of koro’con’ch) another you never took before (i.e. the unknown Afro-centric school system). You need to get to pia’ssa ASAP but you havea flat tire (read parental issues here). Now do you advocate taking the unknown men’ged just in the hopes of getting to pia’ssa or should you FIRST fix the flat tires then worry about either fixing the road or changing routes?

    However, you answer this will decide on weather we agree on the solution or not. I think we all pretty much agree on the vast array of problems that inner-city kids face today so lets not dwell too much in pointing those out again & again.

    Anon – One can “enforce parental accountability” by taking kids away from unfit parents. The state does this on a daily bases but then again they place the kids in worse situations most of the time. BTW if an inner-city class is holding an Algebra class, I say they are far ahead of the curve b/c most can’t even do simple mathematics.

    Helen - Now the Eri/ET dropout increase is a new & interesting phenomena which I think is attributed to the “new kinda immigrant” that is coming from back home. Education is the last thing on the parents’ mind & hence the last thing on the kids’ as well. Could be the same economical issues that plague the Afro American communities or where these new DVs originate from – ge’ter (I don’t know) but I have noticed the pre-1985 immigrant’s main goal was education. However, now it’s all about quick $$ & a nice ride. Just my 2¢…

  71. 71 Anon

    There are two roads, one you know is very bad (full of koro’con’ch) another you never took before (i.e. the unknown Afro-centric school system).

    The unknown road isn’t so much unknown. There are afro-centric school in a couple of major urban center. I dont know how they are financed (charter?), their curriculum, demographics, expense or achievement level. That is the unanswered Q thus far….the anecdotal information I have is that they have a high achievement rate.

    One can “enforce parental accountability” by taking kids away from unfit parents. The state does this on a daily bases but then again they place the kids in worse situations most of the time.

    Exactly! Parental accountability is not enforceable without making the child worst off.

    BTW if an inner-city class is holding an Algebra class, I say they are far ahead of the curve b/c most can’t even do simple mathematics.

    This isn’t clear to me. They ALL, even the school that have a high failure rate follow and go through the exact same curriculum that you completed. The question isn’t do you SIT in an algebra class or not, the question is what is the success rate. Holding an algebra class does not mean one is capable of doing algebra.

    Now the Eri/ET dropout increase is a new & interesting phenomena which I think is attributed to the “new kinda immigrant” that is coming from back home. Education is the last thing on the parents’ mind & hence the last thing on the kids’ as well

    again, blame the parents, blame the parents…. Dude the new immigrants are not different from my family who arrived here in 1984. I know those families, I know their children. There was drop-out rate in my city for the old immigrants and there is drop-out rate for the new immigrants. In my city the habesha dropping out are children of the OLD immigrants. I am not even sure if the new immigrants family’s children are old enough for high school and drop-out.

    Dude, come out of your suburban cave….

  72. 72 ÜberMan

    Anon:

    From all that I wrote, if you can only see the “unknown” being known as an issue instead of seeing my overall argument then we have issues. I think lets just agree to dis-agree. Man you are trying so hard to dissect every thing I say. I’ll just stay in my cave as you put it. You win & you can have the stage all by yourself… Peace!

    Signing-off…

  73. 73 Anon

    Uber, brotherman, I got respect for you. I really do… regardless even if you and I had a small skimish. I have gotten more love on the school yard from the bullies that I confronted: das the African American spirit. I kindly return our fight back to you with LOVE. I will still tell you however, that I would not equate the unknown road to afro-centric education. I would not equate the flat tire easily fixable to parental issue with long and systemic history. The analogy is dead on arrival.

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